Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 24, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

That's not really true. The point that there's not enough difference in "squishiness" is valid though.

Warrior:
80 (Armor) + 20 ( Insignia) + 16 (Shield) +5 (Weapon) = 121 AL
Paragon:
80 + 10 +16 + 5 (-20) = 111 (91) AL
Ranger:
70 + 10 = 80 AL (100 vs ele damage)
Monk:
60 + 15 + 16 + 5 =96 AL

With another potential +10 from a shield and a max of another 25 from armor increasing skills and block stances on the ranger and monk.

None of those characters is squishy by any means, the only professions that aren't able to buff their armor that highly are mesmers and eles and outside of split builds only MoI eles and VoR mesmers are even worth running a squishy for.

Armor levels are a huge problem and a big reason why physical/shutdown oriented pressure has stopped being viable.

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That I can agree with. Needz m0ar powerful but high-cooldown anti-spike skills.

That's stupid, instead of feeding the power creep even more tone down some of the retarded spike templates (Glass arrows and/or 1s bow attacks, MoI, etc.).

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No it isn't. Both involve two squads with similar but not identical resources attempting to defeat the other, trying to gain an edge either by clever use of terrain or by optimal use of the subtle differences in resources. Really, the only difference is the mode of control.

You're an idiot.

Nechrond · Nov 24, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

None of those characters is squishy by any means, the only professions that aren't able to buff their armor that highly are mesmers and eles and outside of split builds only MoI eles and VoR mesmers are even worth running a squishy for.

Armor levels are a huge problem and a big reason why physical/shutdown oriented pressure has stopped being viable.

Yet most of them die in seconds when they're out of monk range. Squishiness is relative. And of course, the much hated blood-spike counters armor-buffing. You also didn't say anything that countered my point that it's the lack of difference in squishiness that is the main problem.

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That's stupid, instead of feeding the power creep even more tone down some of the retarded spike templates (Glass arrows and/or 1s bow attacks, MoI, etc.).

My suggestion was more of a change in functionality than in power level. High-power, high-cooldown skills would counter spike but be useless against pressure. Isn't that what you want?

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You're an idiot.

Your arguing skills have diminished since last we met, Tassadar. Of course you know much more about this game than I do, but it wouldn't hurt to support your point.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 24, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Yet most of them die in seconds when they're out of monk range. Squishiness is relative. And of course, the much hated blood-spike counters armor-buffing. You also didn't say anything that countered my point that it's the lack of difference in squishiness that is the main problem.

They don't die in seconds when they're out of monk range unless they get spiked/trained by the entire opposing team which means that either they or their monks RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up.

Bloodspike is a problem in it's own, hardly an argument against AL being too high, yes there is armor ignoring damage, so what?

Lack of difference in squishiness isn't really an accurate description, the biggest problem is monks having 90+ armor.

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My suggestion was more of a change in functionality than in power level. High-power, high-cooldown skills would counter spike but be useless against pressure. Isn't that what you want?

No, here's why:

1) You'll be very cramped to fit skills like this on your skillbars in non-spike builds due to the amount of skills needed to make a good 'pressure bar'. (Spike builds usually have a lot more room for utility/defense so you'll have to run spike to counter spike)

2) Spikes aren't a rare occurence, modern day spike builds are able to do a full spike pretty much every 8 or so seconds, any strong anti spike skill will have to have a recharge of around this time which would very likely make them overpowered.

3) Power creep is bad, if you buff/tweak skills to deal with other overpowered skills you'll end up changing the game even more into build wars.

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Your arguing skills have diminished since last we met, Tassadar. Of course you know much more about this game than I do, but it wouldn't hurt to support your point.

Your analogy is stupid as it basically applies to any competitive game/sport, that doesn't mean that the games/sports have to be similar in any way besides having the same tools available to achieve the same goal...

The 'mode of control' as you put it is a pretty RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing big difference between an RTS and GW.

Nechrond · Nov 24, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

the biggest problem is monks having 90+ armor.

QFT. We agree about that. The rest = details.

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1) You'll be very cramped to fit skills like this on your skillbars in non-spike builds due to the amount of skills needed to make a good 'pressure bar'. (Spike builds usually have a lot more room for utility/defense so you'll have to run spike to counter spike)

If the anti-spike skill really counters spike properly, any half-assed pressure build will mop them up.

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Spikes aren't a rare occurence, modern day spike builds are able to do a full spike pretty much every 8 or so seconds, any strong anti spike skill will have to have a recharge of around this time which would very likely make them overpowered.

Think m0ar before speaking. Anti-spike != spike protection. You know DotA, that game everyone likes to call crap but somehow has a vibrant player base and wide and interesting meta after a longer period than GW has even existed? It, too, had to deal with a meta that was increasingly filled with burst/spike damage. It dealt with it. Do some research.

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Power creep is bad, if you buff/tweak skills to deal with other overpowered skills you'll end up changing the game even more into build wars.

I agree that power creep is bad. I just didn't consider my idea to be power creep.

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Your analogy is stupid as it basically applies to any competitive game/sport, that doesn't mean that the games/sports have to be similar in any way besides having the same tools available to achieve the same goal...

Game theory exists because they do all have significant elements in common.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 24, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Think m0ar before speaking. Anti-spike != spike protection. You know DotA, that game everyone likes to call crap but somehow has a vibrant player base and wide and interesting meta after a longer period than GW has even existed? It, too, had to deal with a meta that was increasingly filled with burst/spike damage. It dealt with it. Do some research.

GW =/= DotA.

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Game theory exists because they do all have significant elements in common.

Apples and oranges.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

GW =/= DotA.

True. That doesn't mean that one can't learn from the other. A skill that makes you invulnerable for one second whenever you take damage, or a high-cooldown skill that "thorns" lots of damage for a short period, for example, would probably work in GW as well as in DotA.

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Apples and oranges.

Are both round, both good sources of vitamins, both naturally acidic but don't taste as sour as you'd expect because they contain sugars, both can be flung like a baseball and neither survive being hit like a baseball. Your point?

MaaKotka · Nov 25, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

True. That doesn't mean that one can't learn from the other. A skill that makes you invulnerable for one second whenever you take damage, or a high-cooldown skill that "thorns" lots of damage for a short period, for example, would probably work in GW as well as in DotA.

We already have that, Aegis (PvP). It still doesn't see any use despite spike meta we have now. Infuse health and spirit bond are hard counters that are used against spikes but still spikes kill things.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

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Originally Posted by MaaKotka

We already have that, Aegis (PvP). It still doesn't see any use despite spike meta we have now. Infuse health and spirit bond are hard counters that are used against spikes but still spikes kill things.

All 3 of those give some form of spike protection, none of them are spike-counters. Going so far as to call them "hard counters" is simply outrageous. Try again.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 25, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

True. That doesn't mean that one can't learn from the other. A skill that makes you invulnerable for one second whenever you take damage, or a high-cooldown skill that "thorns" lots of damage for a short period, for example, would probably work in GW as well as in DotA.

Post-Tweak Aegis, Angelic Protection, Pre-Tweak Incoming, Divine Intervention, Aura Of Faith.

Skills like these are available, they're simply not viable, this is mostly a because of game mechanics, if you make these skills strong enough to be spike counters in the sense that they stop a spike dead in it's tracks they will be far too powerful (and probably not just against spikes either).

A better way of toning down spike is to do just that, tone it down.

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Are both round, both good sources of vitamins, both naturally acidic but don't taste as sour as you'd expect because they contain sugars, both can be flung like a baseball and neither survive being hit like a baseball. Your point?

Yet they are still different in many ways, different enough for some people to like one but not the other.

You can't compare an RTS to GW because the gameplay isn't even remotely similar. Beating your opponent with similar resources yada yada yada describes tic-tac-toe as accurately as it describes GW or any RTS game.

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

All 3 of those give some form of spike protection, none of them are spike-counters. Going so far as to call them "hard counters" is simply outrageous. Try again.

Spirit Bond aside (it's hardly useful anymore with low damage packets and high armor levels across the board anyway) give an example of a skill you would see as a hard spike counter in guildwars.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Spirit Bond aside (it's hardly useful anymore with low damage packets and high armor levels across the board anyway) give an example of a skill you would see as a hard spike counter in guildwars.

Unspikable was Elvis
10nrg, 1/4th cast time, 30 cooldown
Hold Elvis' ashes for up to 4.5 seconds. Drop effect: Deal to all foes within earshot an amount of damage equal to the damage you took while holding this item.

Or a soft counter:
Unspikable weapon
5nrg, 2 cast time, 30 cooldown
Target ally has an unspikable weapon for 35 seconds. Whenever that ally takes damage, he becomes immune to damage for 1 second.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 25, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Unspikable was Elvis
10nrg, 1/4th cast time, 30 cooldown
Hold Elvis' ashes for up to 4.5 seconds. Drop effect: Deal to all foes within earshot an amount of damage equal to the damage you took while holding this item.

Not gonna work because:

1) Spikes are way more frequent than every 30 seconds.
2) You can just spike someone else
3) It's very easy to KD someone before he activates this pot or simply make him waste the pot by fake spiking
4) The mechanic itself is stupid, it's basically an even clumsier version of Judge's Intervention.

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Or a soft counter:
Unspikable weapon
5nrg, 2 cast time, 30 cooldown
Target ally has an unspikable weapon for 35 seconds. Whenever that ally takes damage, he becomes immune to damage for 1 second.

So basically an Aegis that can be wanded off? How do you suppose that will work?

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Not gonna work because:

1) Spikes are way more frequent than every 30 seconds.
2) You can just spike someone else
3) It's very easy to KD someone before he activates this pot or simply make him waste the pot by fake spiking
4) The mechanic itself is stupid, it's basically an even clumsier version of Judge's Intervention.

1) Aye. But you see, unless they're very good and play around this thing, they're not going to last another 30 seconds.
2) Other chars might have anti-spike too.
3) Very easy? I don't think so. But yes, if the opponent clearly outplays you, they win. Is that a problem?
4) The best Judge's Intervention can do is trade blow for blow. This thing can AND WILL wipe a whole team if they spike excessively.

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So basically an Aegis that can be wanded off? How do you suppose that will work?

So basically you mentally inserted "the next time" into a description, which I left out on purpose?

kedde · Nov 25, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

So if you implemented these infamous ashes, all people would bring would be spikes with ashes on all characters since it would be all about faking spikes, and the first team to successfully get a pot off before a spike wins due to the other team all instagibbing.

That's a lot of skillful entertainment right there.

Sure, you could be a snowflake and bring a pressure build of some sort, probably hexes, but you would be likely to run gimped pressure bars across the entire team, just to be able to slot the ashes on all your character since dealing lethal damage to an entire team every 30 seconds is good pressure.

Yes, it was just an example you came up with, but when your examples can so easily be proven to be a high priority for abuse, you need to come up with better examples of theorycraft.

Having a skill that defines a meta is simply bad, when it dictates as much as this would be likely to.
It isn't always bad (see LoD) since it can be a single skill that is well designed and therefore almost always brought, but has common counters and isn't insanely powerful, or just has poorly designed mechanics.

What you really want is for spikes to be risky and tactically harder to pull off consistently enough to rely on them completely.
This means that you truly need to run a dedicated spikebuild such as Obs Flame spike once was.
Very strong spike with adequate defense, but little actual utility and no movement.

Also pretty sure Mitch means that you can simply fake the usage of the skill, either spike a different person or just have one person time a hit a second earlier than the rest of the spike.

Not terribly difficult to pull off.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

on the topic of high armor/low damage packets, wouldn't divine intervention make sense as a spike saver at this point? we've already established that spirit bond/prot spirit are marginalized with the aforementioned high armor across all characters. divine intervention is also easier to use, since there's no need to pre-prot with it. in fact, it is more effective if used right in the middle of the spike, since there's less chance of it being stripped.

i suppose the high recharge works against it, but it should work well enough in tandem with infuse etc.

JR · Nov 25, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

So basically you mentally inserted "the next time" into a description, which I left out on purpose?

He probably assumed you were actually suggesting something that at least bordered on reasonable.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

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Originally Posted by JR

He probably assumed you were actually suggesting something that at least bordered on reasonable.

Why would I want to do that? You exaggerate to get a point across, once people get your point, you can always fiddle with the details to make it reasonable. If I wanted to sound reasonable, I'd have suggested slightly increasing the cast time of certain spike skills and then buffing CoF. But the point was to give an example of skills that would effectively counter spiking while not also dominating pressure teams.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

right, exaggerate to get a point across...

"yo nechrond, if you don't shut up, i'll kill you, gut you, chop you to bits, then forcefeeding your pieces to your family before i do the same to them!"

if i said that to you face to face, i'd get arrested. it fails to get the point across. at the very least, it isn't any more effective than me saying that you should shut it. at worse, it's less effective because you'll just laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

so basically, don't exaggerate.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

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Originally Posted by moriz

right, exaggerate to get a point across...

"yo nechrond, if you don't shut up, i'll kill you, gut you, chop you to bits, then forcefeeding your pieces to your family before i do the same to them!"

if i said that to you face to face, i'd get arrested. it fails to get the point across. at the very least, it isn't any more effective than me saying that you should shut it. at worse, it's less effective because you'll just laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

so basically, don't exaggerate.

That's a shit exaggeration, because it doesn't stress the point. Plus, if I'm already eaten, you'd have a hard time feeding my family to me.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

errr, forcefeed your FAMILY with YOU. reading comprehension ftl.

not to mention, that exaggeration is no more shitty than the one you gave. invincibility weapon for 30 seconds? yeah ok.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

lolwut, YOU lecture ME about reading comprehension?

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Originally Posted by moriz

errr, forcefeed your FAMILY with YOU. reading comprehension ftl.

You also said doing the same to them, which implies that you'd try feeding them to me AFTER you'd already fed me to them, which is impossible.

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not to mention, that exaggeration is no more shitty than the one you gave. invincibility weapon for 30 seconds? yeah ok.

More of your fabled reading comprehension, which reveals that it is, indeed, just a fable. It would turn you immune to damage for 1 second, but can be triggered any number of times (only when you actually DO take damage) for half a minute. This would do NOTHING against a guy just patiently hitting you with a melee weapon every 1.33 second, it would do NOTHING against condition pressure, but it would prevent tons of damage from spikes.

I'll talk to Mitch, thank you. He may be arrogant and have all the debating skills of a shit-flinging monkey, but at least he has a working brain.